I need your opinions on something running related.
First a quick update... I'm really enjoying recovery. It's been 7 days since Ohlone and although a few toe nails are still quite tender, my legs are feeling good to go. I cross trained just 3 times last week with pool running and fast walking, (is walking even considered cross training)? Haha. By the way, I had to walk in flip flops because of my toes. In any case, my legs are back. I have one more week in May in which to run nice and easy miles or cross train for aerobic fitness, if I choose to do so, and then I start workouts with my coach, Miguel. Can't wait!
Anyway, can some of you experienced Ultra Runners and Marathoners help me? I posted this question on the forums at Runner's World: "Can running a 50-miler 8 weeks before my goal marathon hurt my marathon goal or help it?" A little background before you weigh in. Before Boston I peaked at just over 70 miles per week and averaged several weeks in the mid to high 60s. This fall I believe my coach will get me closer to 90 mpw. The 50 miler I'm considering is the Firetrails 50 on October 11, and my goal marathon, where I hope to run as close to (or under) 3 hours, is the CIM on Dec. 7. My marathon PR set at Boston is 3:17.
I got varying answers from, "Yes you can do both, and do them well," to "I wouldn't do that if I were you." If I run the 50, my plan will be to mostly stick to the marathon training plan my coach gives me, but to add a few back to back long runs preceeding the 50, and then recover in the week to 10 days after with easy running and cross training (depending on what coach has in store), and then do whatever speed training and mileage my coach requires in the leftover weeks prior to the marathon.
I'm definitely an ultra running rookie/newb, but I have lofty dreams and goals (I always have). It keeps me happy in this hobby!
So, please chime in. And while you're at it, help me out with some good trail shoe recommendations. I have a very neutral foot and any kind of special arch support causes pain. I'd prefer a shoe that handles courses like Ohlone very well. My Mizuno Wave Ascends were okay, but man were my feet in bad shape (and still are... a little).
Thanks friends!!!
Managing Hydration When You Are a Runner
4 years ago
13 comments:
First two caveats: 1. everyone's different so it's hard to generalize 2. I'm biased.
You don't sound dead set on the 3 hour goal, as in "sub-3 = success, over 3 = failure" (that marathoners often get stuck over), and seem too optimistic the type to brood over wondering if it running the 50 slowed you down 8 weeks later. Obviously there can be no randomized controlled trial to figure out the effect.
Based on the fact that one week after Ohlone, in which you snagged the rookie award running in your first ultra, you feel good to go, I doubt running Firetrails would hurt you. I think more in terms of leg damage. You use different muscles going up and down the trails. In many ways, I feel marathons are more abusive to the body than 50 mile trail runs, even when you gun them (which you don't have to do since it would be your first 50 miler). You could consider the Firetrails a nice cross-training run that has far greater social benefits and spiritual communion with nature / God's creation than any road marathon. In fact, I anticipate you would feel so good about yourself after finishing, that this psychic/spiritual benefit will help you better focus and energize your rigorous training for CIM.
Okay, enough blabbering. I need to go back to bed before my night shift.
Hey gb,
First off, congratulations on rockin' the Ohlone 50K. I am so impressed with how great you did. I was out at Sunol that morning, quite early, doing a run and thinking of all of you. You really rocked it Girl!
About the shoes: Catra turned me on to Montrail Hardrocks. She and I both work at REI and they are on sale right now. I know she has switched to something else because she is no longer sponsored by Montrail. I have five different pairs of Montrails and love every one of them. But, I do 90% of my runs (which are all trails) in my Hardrocks.
I can't believe you're already thinking of a 50-miler. That is so awesome! I will be doing the Golden Hills Trail Marathon that same day (as the Firetrails 50). I did it last year and didn't impress myself so this year I plan on doing better. :)
For now,
~Jo Lynn
GB,
Hmmm, we talked about this subject last week and I said I wouldn't do it if you were trying to go for a PR at CIM. Then I thought, "Would I do it?" and the answer? Of course I would!!. I would never let anything or anybody get in the way of something I wanted to do. When I wanted to run my first martathon I found out it was sold out, so I did a radio piece on the race so I could get in.
I read all the Forum posts and I agree with alot of the coments. The speed work will get you to the place you need to be to bust 3 hours, this has absolutely nothing to do with the 50 mile race. I don't think the 50 will hurt you at all, I think it will actually help you with your base mileage and set you up nicely for your PR. I would still do a 23-28 mile run 3 weeks before CIM just to trick the body back to where you need to be for a marathon, otherwise the body might think you peaked to soon. Sorry for the complete 180, but I think your like me in that if you really want to do it, then your gonna give it a go to give yourself the extra motivation to go out and achieve the goal. You will probably feel worse if you dont do it.
Danny
Good Sound Advice by Mark!
Thanks Mark, Danny, Jo Lynn and Bob!
You all seem to have a pretty good assessment of how I approach running. :) I'm going to run the 50-miler for training and for the experience (just like Mark recommended). Shoot, I might just HATE it and never do it again, or... well, you know.
And Danny, we'll push each other to the finish line!
The CIM is still one I want to race, and like you all said, I think the higher mileage will only help me make my goal. I think my coach would agree too, since he has been known to run over 200 miles per week during his peak marathon training.
Jo Lynn, I've narrowed it down to the Montrail Vitesse, Montrail Streak, Inov8 Roclite 315 and Asic Gel Trail Attack 4. Decisions, decisions. Ugh. Thanks for your help!!!
Bob, how you doin'? Are you feeling READY for that miniscule 100 miles you'll be running soon? ;) I can't wait to read your report. You know we'll be with you in spirit!
Aite, I'm a little late to the party but here's my 2 cents.
How important is running 3 hours at CIM? If it's really important then I would skip the 50-miler and run the marathon portion or another 50k instead. I would err on the side of caution since you've actually never done a 50 before. You don't know how your body is going to feel afterwards. My worry is that since it will be your first 50, the recovery might take longer than anticipated and disrupt your marathon training. Also if you're like me the "race for training only mindset" goes out the door when you are actually in the race. Once I'm in I go all out.
They are both big goals. I do feel like you can do them both and do them well but well enough to cut 17 minutes off your marathon after the 50? Not so sure.
That said if it was me, I would roll the dice and attempt them both, deep down I'm a gambler and I would bet on myself to pull both off. The uncertainty and risk is a thrill.
I'd say your #1 task, if you want to get close to 3:00 is to improve your lactate threshold. 70 quality miles most weeks will do that. Ultras are another animal, as you know now. If the three hours is big to you, skip a 50 miler and do one after the goal marathon. You know the motto: you can either run long or you can run fast.
Congrats on a GREAT running year.
Ron
Crazy lady. You, GB/Silly Lillie, are freakin' fabulous. Your children (especially your daughter) are lucky to have such a role model for a mom. Go do your 'thang! (You are also getting yours truly inspired to ramp up the goal calendar...)
If you're used to asics, maybe the 2120 trail shoe might be worth a try. A lot of "trail running" shoes are absolute tanks.
As far as running a 50 miler before your marathon...
Go for it! That is all.
I read the Forum discussion and then Rick and Ron's warnings. I still stand with my original remarks, but it's important that you not get caught up in hammering through Firetrails, trying to make a certain place or time, especially if you feel you might be on the verge of injuring something. Also, just make sure you can work the race in logically with the overall marathon training program you and your coach have planned, which it seems you can based on the mileage you've mentioned.
Lillie,
How is your coach taking you asking for others' advice on training??
On the forum I said that a 50-miler was likely not going to be part of a standard 16-week marathon training. With that said, you will have other occasions to run marathons. It really comes down to how well you want to run CIM, I mean, seriously. How much you want to focus in the fall on the CIM only to keep your mental strong and train hard.
The other question is how well you want to run Fire Trails. Since this will be your first one, the is another rookie opportunity, comes only one. So maybe you should goal and focus more on FT...
Again, a good topic for your coach.
Jean.
Farther Faster
with your base i bet you would recover very well after firetrails. oh, congratulations on tearing it up at olone. and running firetrails you will get to meet the ultra legend ann trason! it might help make you stronger at the end of the marathon???
jean is right, you might want to ask your coach.
good luck on finding shoes. i think it is hard to give advise on shoes since we are all so different.
mark is right too, i wouldn't "get after it" at fire trails. enjoy the day and event if you do it.
Ha! I had a similar quandry. My goal for the first half of the year was to qualify for Western States, and my goal for the second half was to qualify for Boston (my marathon PR is only 3:43). But I want to do Firetrails because it looks awesome and it's just down the street from my home. My goal marathon is Silicon Valley which is about 2 weeks later. Not enough time in my case to recover. So I've pretty much decided on doing the Golden Hills Trail marathon (companion marathon to Firetrails). Hmm, unless I can shave off 23 minutes off of my marathon time by San Francisco!
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